Catharina Schneegass-What introverts and extroverts need to know about each other

Jason Frazell: 0:00

Good morning, good afternoon, and you're gonna find out why it's the afternoon for some of you and why it's the morning for others. This is a very special episode of the podcast because I'm recording this one's recording live. Or we're actually broadcasting this one live with my good friend, Catarina, who's going to introduce herself in a minute. This is going to be released as a podcast later. But today, we are live streaming this on Facebook and LinkedIn. So I see you did your makeup. I'm a little I'm a little flustered. People are watching us, Kathy. So it is so good to see you this morning. My time not in the morning, your time. So I'd love with you to introduce yourself for us. Where where are you in the world? A little bit about yourself?

Catharina Schneegass: 0:41

Yes, of course. Thank you for having me. Jason. It's always great. My pleasure. Even though it's been way too long, just seeing you virtually. But yeah, it's it's 2pm over here. So I just had my lunch successfully, not in a soup coma.

Jason Frazell: 0:58

Overwhelming way to tell us where you are.

Catharina Schneegass: 1:02

I was about to say that. Yeah, located in Hamburg, which is in the northern part of Germany, which is also the reason why it's 2pm over here and not 8am as it is at your place, right Eastern times. Yeah, yeah. But I work with a lot of people all over the world. So I know not all of the time zones in the States, I think that we'll need a little bit more practice to learn all of them. It's also not really gold mine. But eastern time I can calculate

Jason Frazell: 1:31

that HYDRA goal is for 2022 is to be able to snap which each one. And you used to live in New York. So you're you're very familiar with that time difference.

Catharina Schneegass: 1:41

I used to live there. Yes, exactly. So we that's where we met as well. Right? Yes. moved at the end of 2019. With my husband, and right before the global pandemic, which was not exactly what we planned. Of course, nobody, I think, but yeah, we have four months of an incredible experience of how Manhattan looks and feels like and then the global pandemic hit and everything was turned upside down. But walking on a completely empty, and Time Square and Park Avenue was also kind of interesting.

Jason Frazell: 2:19

Interesting is yes. So as we get into it today, there's many reasons we're here one, we know each other quite well been friends for quite a while. And you're a self proclaimed introvert. And we have some scientific data to prove that I believe you've taken some assessments and such. Anybody who's ever met me knows that I have a self proclaimed and an extrovert. And we thought we'd have a fun discussion today about one what that means, how we apply it in our leadership, how we can make it all work with our teams regardless. And talk about energy drainers energy drivers. And then, as always, we're gonna have some fun while we do it, and hopefully entertaining our audience. And for those audience, throw in the questions if you have them on LinkedIn, or Facebook, as we're broadcasting this live. And what we are going to do is I'm going to do a special q&a in the podcast episode. And you and I will come back on and answer those questions together in a separate thing, so that we can maintain our conversation for today. So Katharina, let's, are you tired yet? Are you tired yet? We've been talking for three minutes and 27 seconds.

Catharina Schneegass: 3:30

Well, that would be the case, I definitely have the wrong job. Luckily, it doesn't work that way. But I was a little I was a little nervous before we joined the call. And I think partially probably that's not my interest itself, but more my German self. It's like, oh, we need to do a tech check. And then, you know, my, my German brain was calculating all the different ways of how things could go sideways, and then your car broke down.

Jason Frazell: 4:00

And the thing that went wrong is on my side. And I'm over here. Yeah, and I'm over here. I'm over here. A pot. I've done 130 Some episodes of podcasts and like, it's all good. I've got some new equipment, it's going to work out. I tested it last night. So I'm calm, cool and collected the whole time. And then what happens? My car breaks down, which is why we're a few minutes late today. So apologies for that. And we still have some great time with you. So Kathy, let's start with defining extraversion and introversion. Because a lot of times, people I hear people say this, it's like, oh, to be in sales, you have to be extroverted. And oh, it's like people like networking, or they're out loud. And it can mean that But scientifically, and in like the Myers Briggs, for example, or other scientific communities, that's not actually what it means. Would you share with us your understanding? Because I know you've done research on this what your understanding of what we mean when we say introversion and extraversion.

Catharina Schneegass: 4:53

Yeah, and just as a disclaimer, everyone I studied psychology so the answer might Are you a little nerdy?

Jason Frazell: 5:03

Maybe I love Cathy's while you're here.

Catharina Schneegass: 5:07

Yes. I own that. Yes. No, maybe before we talk about the content and the definition itself, maybe up front, like usually, usually, you're not 100%, introverted or 100%. extrovert, but I know that you you know, you always say like, oh, I'm 100% extrovert. And yes, you are an extrovert. But usually it's a sliding scale. So for listening today, or whenever they listen to the podcast, it doesn't mean that you have to be 100%, this or that. So usually, we all are somewhat introverted and somewhat extroverted, depending on your personality structure, the scale slides from one side to another.

Jason Frazell: 5:48

Well, Kathy, I wanted to, I just want to address that for myself really quickly. according to Myers Briggs, I am 100% II, extraversion, that's where I get that from. It doesn't mean that I don't like my peace and quiet. But according to Myers Briggs, I am 100% Extra, and I took it and got coached on it last year. So that is new, but you know, maybe there maybe I am going to shift a little bit. I get older and sometimes, alright, enough. Yeah.

Catharina Schneegass: 6:18

Yeah. Well, usually, personality traits are not changing that much over the lifetime. There were a lot of studies around that. But there is some movement. So maybe, who knows? Yeah, having two kids might also change you and the puppy. And so? Yes, yeah, no. But back to the topic. What introversion and extraversion really is about is where you get your energy from. There were a lot of research about what it is and what it's not. And as simple as it is, it's really, if you're an introvert, you get your energy more from alone time. And if you're an extrovert, you get your energy from being with people and connection and being with them, like physically being with people. So for example, as an introvert, you probably are more in the zone and more energized when you work at a quiet place by itself, or in smaller meetings, or what we do right now one on one. Well, and all the people who are out there, but I can't see them. So it's not that draining for me. But, and if you're more extroverted, you probably if you work from home, then you would probably choose going to a coffee shop, because what you need and what you would you build up on is the energy in the room. I do have a few clients were saying that after working from home for such a long time, what you know what helped them throughout the pandemic, or the last weeks of being home and flexible and whatnot, is going to a place where people were, you know, walking around or working themselves to, to build up on that. Yeah.

Jason Frazell: 7:56

Yeah. I want to talk about virtual. Because you had mentioned in person and I'm, I'm reminded of a conversation I had I do a lot of coaching work with salespeople. And salespeople definitely skew towards extraversion. I think it's one of the reasons people go into sales. It's obviously the people profession. And they were telling me and they work for a large tech company that's now back in person two days a week. And they were saying, how most of them were saying how much they loved being back in person, and how they didn't get any work done. Because they just ended up talking to people and hanging out and going to lunch, and all these things. And so I think that that's been the trap in my career when I worked in corporate as well as I get, you know, I'm I'm a chatterbox. I love to connect with people and talk. And that fills me up. But then it takes away from work. So that's like they love your opinion on that. And then the second part of the question, yes, I'm gonna stack a question is, how does this all play virtually since most of the work that I do is virtual, most of the work that you do is virtual, and most of the world is still pretty much virtual. How does extraversion introversion apply in the virtual world?

Catharina Schneegass: 9:04

Yeah, yeah. So let me first answer your first question about being in person and spending time with people I think, something that they recently found out and research is that we have different reaction to social interaction. So when you connect with someone and you interact with someone, then you have a higher level of dopamine, right? So you're like, happier makes you happy? You're satisfied all that? And introverts need smaller doses than extroverted people. Oh, no, I'm happier when I don't see so many people and the interaction is shorter, and you need more people and more time to spend with people. So that's, that's one of the really physiological process that happens inside your body and I I'd like to compare it with, you know, drinking alcohol. If you're drinking alcohol, then everyone has a different level of what feels good to them, you know, some drink one glass of wine, some need five, or 25. Like it's just very different 25

Jason Frazell: 10:15

I've been there. I did not feel good when I do that the next day. That's

Catharina Schneegass: 10:20

yeah, yeah. And that brings me to the next topic. Because if you have a to higher level of that of social exposure, or interaction, what introverts experience sometimes is a hangover, like literally a hangover, because your body is like, it's too much, you have a physical reaction to to too much social interaction. And we all know that human beings are very adaptive, right? We're also during the pandemic was challenging for everyone. But after a few weeks of being in it, it was, it got a little easier to be with it all, like the uncertainty and figuring out how life works. And that's the same here too, I think, to answer your second question that we get used to it. So introverts being back at the office, extroverts being back at the office, have a very different experience a because of the physical reaction inside your body. And be because we were just not used to it. Yeah.

Jason Frazell: 11:20

And you identify as an introvert, but you do like being with people in the room with people. It's just what I'm hearing you like, you're like, I know, you're a real people person, you love people. It's just you need a little more, you need more recharge time. And for me, I like that actually, is my recharge time. So I you know, we've we've shared spaces together, where we're doing trainings and things together. And a lot of times people go, Oh, I'm so drained. Or, oh my gosh, I'm so tired. And I'm like, from what I like I let it literally doesn't make me tired. What makes me tired is isolation, not connecting with good people and spending time with good people. So I just want to say that for everybody listening that just because you're introverted doesn't mean you don't love people, you're not a people person, you don't like networking, it just means really, what it means is you need more time to recharge your tank, to to think and to recharge. So, you know, part of what we're going to talk about today is what do introverts need to know about extroverts and vice versa, as a way for us even to build even more camaraderie community and like, what we know because what we know in the work environment and united both to coaching work and work environments, is that we forget that not everybody is the same as us. When we're operating, and we expect people going to operate the same way and the best teams that I know and the best managers and leaders respect that people have different processes. So for you, specifically, Kathy, how does this show up for you in the kind of work that you do? Since you are you speak? You run group facilitations? You do one on one work? How does this show up for you? Like what how, what's your experience? Like as somebody who is a people based business and also as introverted?

Catharina Schneegass: 13:02

Yeah. I think what you said earlier applies. It's all a question of balance. And I know that when I have, you know, a full day of training with a lot of participants, it's not that I don't like it. I like people. Everyone likes people. That's like a human basic need. Everyone needs connection. We just need it in different doses, I guess. And for me, if I know that I'm busy with a lot of trainings in a row, like sometimes my weeks are super busy. And I know I need to block time to just be by myself and basically regulate my nervous system. Because otherwise, it's like, I over pace. I get so excited and I get I'm so like, on that I have a hangover afterwards. I can't fall asleep because I'm so I'm still going. And so that's something that I noticed in my in my life when I'm too busy. I need to make sure that I have blocks. But in general, yeah, like I'm an introvert and I love people that introverts don't like people really is a myth. That's not true. And also that our introverts are shy or quiet. That's also not true. They shy is very different. I mean, there is a again, like all the psychological nerd here. But if you look at the big five, which is the most common personality, test or personality model that is actually also validated by science, and they have extraversion as one area to look at. And then they also have neuroticism which is more about being shy. It's more about like, how, how much do I overthink? Is there like a social fear or anxiety maybe even to look at and it's two different things like for me, I used to be very shy. I didn't really enjoy talking to people and sometimes that still haunts me. But it's To learn behavior, and you can choose, you know, otherwise. I mean, when I look at my school, I, the the worst thing for me ever was to prepare a presentation. That was like, my worst nightmare. And so what I did, I was not preparing very well. So I was thrown into the classroom when I had to improvise. And then I started to enjoy it. And now I'm a trainer. I bet if I would tell my friend, my teacher back then, that this is what I do right now. They they would just not believe it.

Jason Frazell: 15:32

Until they saw you here on this on this live and they go wait. Oh, she's great. I had a question there about the you'd mentioned, when you go, the way it landed for me is that you mentioned when you wouldn't when you hit your limit, or when you go to the point that you know, for you specifically Kathy, how do you know when it's time for you to recharge?

Catharina Schneegass: 15:59

That's a good question. And it's sometimes very difficult to say, that was an experience. So for everyone who's listening and wondering about the same thing. It's just creating awareness, being aware of checking in with yourself where you add in what you need in the moment, because when I am in the moment, because I love people, and I love my job, and I love to be connected and facilitate trainings and do coaching and all of that. I don't recognize it. I usually recognize it too late, a little bit without Alright, it was fun five minutes ago, and then suddenly you realize, oh, your head is already starting to spin or you develop a headache or something. Yeah, so I got better at it. But yeah.

Jason Frazell: 16:44

Second question, you'd mentioned also the idea and have little brain fog still, just to own it. You mentioned the idea around, oh, man, I'm gonna lose my train of thought here. And Watson, I'll come back to it. So I want to dig in here on what extroverts should know about introverts and ask you a few questions. And then I would love if you would then interview me the same. So we can we can kind of flesh that out together. So some things that I'm curious about, oh, sorry, I'm gonna go back to I know what I was thinking. I've taken that assessment. For those listening, what's the name of that assessment? I've taken it. And I'm going to tell you, I'm 99% extraversion and 1% neuroticism on that is I remember, so that that makes that makes sense. I'm not shy, I don't have any social anxiety. And I'm very extroverted. For those listening who want to take that I took it for free somewhere on a some sort of university website, what is the name of that assessment?

Catharina Schneegass: 17:46

I didn't. So they the the assessments are based on the model. And the model is called Big Five, or oshi. Five. So it's like five different personality traits. Those are the ones that are well researched and science like over years and decades, and they've figured out that this is the most reliable assessment or model to look at personality overall. Um, I have to look at, look out for assessments, because most of the the assessments that I know are actually costing money. But I think that I can, I can find some free, free ones afterwards. So we can share it in a link or something. Yeah,

Jason Frazell: 18:20

we'll put it we'll put that on the we'll put the assessment. That's the big five, we'll put that in the comments on the live here and LinkedIn. And we'll also put it in the show notes in the podcast. It's a it's a fun one, it asked you a lot of questions. So questions. Yeah. So something I'm curious about introversion. What do you want, you're in a conversation, having a good time, it's engaging. And then you realize, hey, I'm starting to feel that, like, we talked about that moment. Where I need to break I need to recharge, I'm not feeling 100% emotionally intelligent. And you've got somebody like me on the other side, who is like, just ready to rock till five in the morning, talk over drinks, whatever. How do you address that with people? And I'm asking, partially for those that are listening that are married, highly unlikely that you and your partner have the are the same in this? And is so yeah, like, how do you like what do you say? Or what do you feel? How do you how do you operate in that model? When you've got, I'm sure you have friends you see socially that are more extroverted, that want to hang out longer? And you're like, I just got it gotta take a break. How do you how do you deal with that?

Catharina Schneegass: 19:36

Um, I think that also developed over time. I mean, my friends know me and they know that I can do both right. But what I usually ask myself before I go there, like how important is this meeting or get together with friends and how do I want to stay long or not? And be upfront about what I'll do? Like I'll just share with my friends and German there's a saying you Say you've had an outage, which means I won't get all today. That means that you're leaving not too late. That's one way to address it. But I think in general, it's the tricky part is to know that before, right, where are you at and where your battery level level is. Because not not only it doesn't mean that, like an evening with friends will drain your battery battery completely. But if you've been in an in person workshop, or you had a, you know, a day at work, where you had a lot of meetings where you met a lot of people, and you had a lot of group discussions, you might be a little tired of that. So then you need to be just well honest about it and address it if you want to. If not, then you can also suffer in silence. Because usually, I mean, I wouldn't probably address it and say, like, Jason Cohen, could you just please shut up? Stop it had it

Jason Frazell: 20:56

all say the word Shut up.

Catharina Schneegass: 20:59

Shut up. Yeah. But I mean, that depends on who you are, right? Again, like being introvert doesn't mean that you're shit that your shyness, essentially. So some who are introverted don't have an issue with addressing it in the room and say, like, Hey, Jason, you talk a lot. Can we can we just take a pause here and circle back to an idea that you talked earlier on, I'd like to get a little bit more in depth around it. That's, that's one way to do it. But But generally, as an introvert, it's a little tricky to jump in. So trying to look for a break, and then jump in there.

Jason Frazell: 21:33

Yeah, I am friends. And I know a lot of speakers, I have a lot of speakers on the podcast. And when this comes up, a lot of speakers are very introverted. I'm talking about public speakers, people that get out in front of 500,000 2000 people. And I know what I know, somebody who's just an incredible speaker who's spoken in front of 50,000, people get paid a lot of money. And when you meet him very introverted, but when you see him on stage, you would think he's always gonna be the life of the party. And this is a good example of where I think introverts you have, you can generate that energy. But then it's time to go recharge me when I speak, I can go speak, and then I'm ready to go speak again, then I'm ready to go speak again, record a podcast after podcast see a client after client. Right? I don't know that that's so healthy. Because being what I've realized, during the pandemic is being I'm gonna use the word reliant. I'm married, have kids, so I am around people all the time around people in person and I, all my work is I see people every day, I'm interacting with him. Part of the reason I'm a podcaster, because I love talking to people, cool people, especially. The there's a there's a challenge as an extrovert, especially during the pandemic, when you're not interacting with people as much. And so I realized for me is I needed to be in spaces where I was in groups of people. And that I've realized, for me, this is and this is something I'd like, at least this is how I am as an extrovert, one on one I like, but it's not my favorite. I'd actually rather be in a group of people, like being on a zoom like 25 to 30 people speaking to them or interact with them is like, Is my I'd actually like more. That's my ultimate. That's my juice that fills me up. I love that. I've no nervousness about it. Does that for you? I know that you speak to audiences of that size and bigger as well. Does that fill you up in the moment? And then do you realize afterwards I need to recharge? Or do you? Are you ready to go again? Like how does that work for you, as you're sourcing it? And we're talking virtually right now?

Catharina Schneegass: 23:44

Yeah, I think it depends a little bit on the group and the topic. What Yeah, I think for me, it, it's linked to the depth of the conversation. What I can do is like typical networking, Zoom calls, where you are switching breakout rooms every two minutes, and you just pitch your stuff, and then you move on. Yeah, after that. I'm like completely drained, I usually hop off during the call, because that's not that's not who I am. That's not what I enjoy. And so my my battery gets low very, very, very, very quickly. With bigger groups, I can I can run trainings a whole day, I won't feel tired during the training. I would feel tired in the evening, though. So we're talking virtual here, but in person, I would be the kind of trainer that would, you know, prefer to hang out on the hotel room and read a book rather than having drinks or dinner with the participants in the evening. I can do it but if I have the choice, I prefer to be by myself and like recharged that way.

Jason Frazell: 24:44

Yeah. Very, very interesting. So what, what specifically what I want to talk about processing and speaking, external processing, internal processing, one of the things that I learned through by when I did some Myers Briggs work was the I, I had knew this concept, but the idea of external processors and internal processors. And again, this is also a gradient, like you're a complete external processor, a complete internal processor. Where do you see yourself landing on that scale of? Well, let me define that for the audience. First, I'm going to use myself as an example, I generally don't know what I'm going to say until exactly when I say it. And that's actually what connects to my head. And that's how I actually process things. mean, I have an idea, but it's generally in the moment into internal processing, which I've not, is more, it's been described to me more as and this happens very quickly, is more of a think about what I want to say I don't what I want to say. And then I say it, I'm generally not doing that, at least not consciously. I mean, we're always doing that as humans in a way. So for. For you, how does that how does that mechanism? Or how does that processing operate for you as an introvert?

Catharina Schneegass: 26:05

Um, I'd say I'm probably more an internal processor than an external processor, but it also depends on who am I talking to?

Jason Frazell: 26:15

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Catharina Schneegass: 26:17

Because I mean, we both worked together, you were coaching for a while. And you know that I can also verbally process whatever is happening, especially things that I don't have access to right away, that seem complex or tricky to me. So on one on one, I'm sometimes leaning more into the verbal processor, and I can talk a lot. But in bigger groups, I'm more an internal processor. So what you explained earlier, what I do is I observe and listen. And then I start thinking about my own idea. And then jumping in when there is a, you know, a place to jump in. That's my, that's my automatic default. That's how I'm wired, not meaning that this is always how I show up in groups. But from my natural being who I am, that this is how my brain works, I usually, I prefer to observe and listen, especially if it's a new group, and then build up on that versus, you know, starting to talk right away, and processing in the moment. If I have a choice,

Jason Frazell: 27:19

you have a choice, and you're in your natural mode, which I know you you'd like to practice something outside of what your automatic is one of the things you're very good at. So you practice, I'm sure you practice having it go differently. Yeah. And that leads me that leads me to the topic of introversion in the workplace. And I'd like to look at just humans also like to take a look at women in the workplace. There's been a lot written about this. We've got books about this about how can women show up more powerfully, people, I'm sure there's people listening to this, and people that are watching us live to say, that all sounds great. I'd like to show up more powerfully, and I don't have the room, I don't have the space, like there's people on my team, they're going to take up all the energy they're going to take up all the time. How do I be more assertive without coming across as something that isn't authentic to me. And I'm thinking in my career, this is something that I was working on is giving people more space to because that's for me, I have to think about it more. And it's something I'm constantly working on. Podcasting is great for that, by the way. Really good way to practice that interviewing people. The idea that we go back to the external processing, a lot of the times, and I'll say this for anybody listening, a lot of the people that I know, myself included, it's not that we need to be hurt, it's that we don't actually know what we're gonna, what we have, until we process it. And so what would you have for people that are listening are like, Hey, I'm at a team, it's a pretty tight a team, go getters. And we have these people on this team that just they take up most of the space. And this is also something for leaders to be looking out for. Do you have people on your team that are more introverted, that need that space? There are actual techniques to run meetings around this? And then there's also just the awareness of it. So just a general topic love to hear your thoughts on this. I know you you actually do trainings on this, which is my brother's

Catharina Schneegass: 29:18

Yeah, training, some coaching as well. And as you said, it's a both end, right. It's like it's a team dynamic. And then there is a leader involved to can model a culture of belonging that's actually part of a culture of belonging as well to make sure that everyone's hurt. And I mean, yeah, introverts and women, both who are typical, you know, groups at work that sometimes don't get the time to talk as much as they want to, and hear as well as when it's both and it's like, on the one hand, I need to own that I'm an introvert and a woman and if that topic is important to me, then I need to practice ways to sneak sneak my way in Have a conversation. And there are a lot of ways to do it right, you can prepare for conversation, the meeting. So you know that what you're gonna say, is good enough to talk it out loud, you can try to interrupt people in a way that it feels still authentic. Also, something that I just discussed with a client earlier, she was like, Yeah, okay, I'll practice it. But do you think that my clients, or my sorry, my team members will think that something's wrong when I'm completely different? Like, even though it seems like a big change for us usually doesn't seem that big for everyone else. Yeah. So just as a side note, like, yes, start small and start with things that seem manageable for you to do. But also, if you want to go all in and say like today, I'll be always the first if I have a thought, and I'll address it right away, it doesn't mean that you'll be perceived as inauthentic or your team members will be confused or anything. So yeah, I think the main key is really like owning how you operate, and then getting clear on what you want to bring to the call and then practice ways to get there. And of course, it's for extroverts, the same thing, right ownership, that you are someone who's verbally processing, and who likes to go with the flow, and who likes to communicate and connect with people, and that there are some people that need to be involved or not as loud as your maybe.

Jason Frazell: 31:22

Yeah, I love the context of the word that you used. Sneak. That's so good. Like, where can I weasel my way into this conversation? So good. That's so good. What about

Catharina Schneegass: 31:39

and, by the way, sorry, just shortly talking a little bit about diversity. I think that's the great part here too, because a lot of research found out that diverse teams are the best. So you need people for all kinds of sizes, shapes, color, personality traits, whatever it is. So there for leaders listening, there is a reason like there's evidence that we should try to involve everyone in the conversation. And yes, like, extroverts might be the ones who are firing up the folks and like, we're very passionate about it. And we're feeling the energy of a room and it can address whatever is there really quick in the moment. But then introverts are also able to slow down a conversation and go deep into that. And that's helpful sometimes as well. Yeah.

Jason Frazell: 32:27

What are some resources that you've taken a look, I know, there are some books like think, you know, think fast and think slow, there's quiet, I believe is the famous book about introversion. That was a huge bestseller a few years ago, and the other resources that you'd recommend, Kathy, for people that are interested in this topic, extraversion introversion, working on diverse teams, more effective.

Catharina Schneegass: 32:49

Yeah, I mean, Brene, Brown is a classic, right? She's not, and she identifies as an introvert too, by the way,

Jason Frazell: 32:56

which is really amazing.

Catharina Schneegass: 32:58

Yeah, if you see her on stage, you wouldn't, you wouldn't assume that, but she's an introvert. And she mentioned that in some of her books, as well. So if you want to, if you're at a point where you want to get to know you, as a person a little bit better, and find language for what you experienced, then I can only highly recommend her current book as of a heart, not sure if you read a JSON, but it's, it's incredible to just have the language to explain what is happening inside your head and your body. And dare to lead as well. It's a wonderful book, about leadership, which is also a lot rooted in belonging and ownership. And, you know, choosing courage because this is something that we as introverts and who were more shy than others need to choose more often in in meetings and group meetings than extroverts to be courageous and jump in and say it and address it at the moment.

Jason Frazell: 33:51

Yeah, for so I'm a those who know me, I do I do coaching work at a company called Life hikes. And we we do communicate stret a communication strategy for groups on how to be better communicators on virtual and in person. We have a whole module on how to involve team so I want to offer something up for those listening who have recognized this and that leaders or teammates, recognize that this is a thing that's happened. And it's very natural that this is going to happen, I think back in my career, and I think back this happened, a lot of my teams and I worked on pipe a sales teams, but there's always going to be a great gradient. So I have two things that one is leaders that this reminds me of something that was said in a training room that I was in, through the coaching program that I went through and we had we had a person who was really good, he was also very introverted. And somebody asked him to speak up more and he said the best way to get an introvert to shut up and shut down is to ask them to speak up more to like actually say like, we need you to speak up more. So that's the first Would you agree with that to like, force somebody to have to speak or, Hey, we're gonna go around the room and everybody He's going to give five minutes on this. Like, that is not generally a thing that works very well, at

Catharina Schneegass: 35:04

all. No, yeah, no, not at all. Like, that's one of the myths about introversion or you know, extroverts working with introverts need your help to, we don't need to be pushed in front of the crowd. Like, we're grown up people, we know what we want. We know that. And, you know, just because we're quiet doesn't mean that we're too shy, we're not able to talk and speak up. And I like to contribute. But as soon as someone's like, calling me out, or saying like, well, you've been quiet today, like what's happening? Let's go like, say, and then usually I'm like, I'm sorry.

Jason Frazell: 35:41

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't work. Yeah. And I'll so that's the thing I wanted to mention there before I give a like a how to here is, there's nothing wrong with being quiet. If you don't have something to say, you don't need to say it. And that applies for everybody. Extroverts. I'm speaking to myself right now, even if you have something to say, doesn't mean you have to say it, is it going to be valuable. And so that's the first thing I'd say is for leaders recognize that and your team. And then one of that, one of the things we teach at life hikes on the room that's really effective, is getting the audience involved. And this is for team meetings, is hey, we're gonna go around the room at the end of this meeting. And we're going to start with Kathy, we're gonna go to Jason, then we're going to go to Christine, just like to hear one takeaway from today. And it just a way to get people involved and how people feel seen and feel heard without, Hey, Catherine, what did you get from the meeting? And like a big open ended thing? It's like you give somebody something specific and give. And what it does, is it models that everybody should be involved in it actually models, that one, people have something valuable to contribute, because who cares? You're an introvert, you know, you have valuable things to contribute. Whether or not you say them directly was like, Wow, it's really nice to hear from this person. I want to hear more from them. So it's a way to model it without making it. Hey, you need to speak up more, right? Like nobody likes being told that they have, at least I don't like being told, I don't think you do either. You have to do this, or you have to do that. So that's that's just an easy way as leaders like, Hey, we're just gonna go on and you name the people ahead of time. And it what it also does is it gives people time to think about it. Mm hmm.

Catharina Schneegass: 37:19

Yep, exactly. Sometimes process and again, like, just because I'm introvert doesn't mean that I'm that I'm shy, and that I'm not talking a lot. Introverts can talk a lot, just so we're not mixing this up here at the moment right now, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, I just lost my train of thought you said something. And I wanted to add on that. That's gone, anyhow. But I think you said something around leadership. Which leads me to a conversation that I'm also having a lot with companies right now, a lot of them are looking to find ways to have people be more engaged and more happy at the workplace. And I think one skill that we do also talk a lot about is empathy as a leader, yeah, that is such a core skill to develop. And empathy starts with listening. So that's the link to what you said, it's not necessarily to push someone on stage and say, like, here you go, now you can shine in the light and like, whatever. But it's understanding what that person actually really needs, and what they're excited about and what they would like to talk about. And then on the other hand, as an introvert who is more leaning backwards, it's also your job to figure out how you want to show up at the workplace. Because if you want to work as a CEO, or CTO or CMO, whatever, if you want to be on top of it, then you need to speak up. Because your opinion and what you're saying is valuable and important for the company. So there's no way to just that say it because you don't feel like it. But maybe you don't have to address it in the meeting right away. Some things that I do, for example, in that parking lot, if I don't feel like, you know, speaking up in the big group a lot. What I usually do is like I do I start one on one conversations, not during the meeting, because that's impolite but depends on but there's always a chance to connect with the participants afterwards, like you can always reach out to them afterwards and say, like, Hey, you had a great idea in the beginning of the conversation, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the project that you do right now. And start a conversation one on one if that's what you prefer, if that's what you say is like, where you are in your natural being and that feels okay for you to be with or prepare up front and you can also research people that you were in the room with, and then start a conversation up front so you have something to add on in the meeting. But again, you can you can work on speaking up that is a skill that you can actually practice.

Jason Frazell: 39:52

Yeah, I want to add on to that as we start to wrap up and thank you that is really valuable. You and I have spent shared time and spaces where people don't speak up a lot, have some speed people, and we're talking about training programs where people, and you can watch, and this is mostly virtual, and it happens in the room, you can look at people and you know that they have something to say you can see it in their face. And I know because I coach some of these people that what comes up for them as it's not going to be valuable, I'm not going to be perceived as smart. I'm not going to super to this. And this, I don't think this is so much an introversion extroversion thing. What I do think at least speaking for myself is when you lean more towards extrovert, you're just more willing to say it because you know, it's going to process as you say it, I would really encourage men, women, when you if you have something to say it is highly likely that it's valuable for that room. Highly, highly, highly likely. And this is like anything in life, that doubt that you have in your own mind. And you said this earlier Kathy about something else is that the thing that feels big to you, it's not going to feel big to us at all. So really, I encourage everybody speak up. In either spaces, you're in what you have to say as valuable. And there is gold in almost everything that people say there's always something to learn. There's something that you'd be curious about. And one of the interesting things of going through coach training program, like you and I have both done is learning that there's always something. And for me, you know, me personally, I love to hear from all types of people. I didn't always used to like, when I was in my sales career, I like to hear from people that wanted to buy stuff from me. Now I'm really interested and I've learned through the work I do with this podcast like this would be episode 125. Man, I've interviewed people of all, you could probably map us all out on some sort of scaling, we'd have every single personality type now. Everybody's got something really awesome to share with the world. So just encourage you all to speak up for those watching, listening. Kathy, as we wrap up, and then Germany

Catharina Schneegass: 42:00

for you before you wrap up. Sorry, Jason, you can interrupt in a polite way, by the way as an introvert. And I wanted to add what you said, especially for women, by the way, if you're listening and you're a leader in a company, and you're female, we just found out in the research, but I did not I just read the research that women are more likely to speak up if they're female role models speaks up. So you have a responsibility to speak up because then others will follow. If you want to hear more female voices and your female yourself. Speak up.

Jason Frazell: 42:34

Well, isn't that just so perfect that you're here on a podcast live people watching and hundreds of people are gonna listen to this. Thank you for speaking up today. Kathy, thank you for making a difference. As we wrap up, how can people connect with you find out more about the work you do? And just learn more about you?

Catharina Schneegass: 42:51

Yeah, um, well, you can find me on LinkedIn, obviously. So I assume that I'll we'll put that in the show notes later. I also have a website. But then you also find me in my own podcast that I co host with three more incredible coaches, that we're translating in different languages. We have English, German, Spanish, and Mandarin language. And the podcast is called I feel awful chronicles of leadership. It's a micro podcast, super cool is only three minutes. So there's no excuse to not listen to it because you don't have the time.

Jason Frazell: 43:24

Perfect, perfect for introverts. You're like three minutes, and I'm done. Exactly. Excellent. We will put all that in the show notes. Oh, Kathy, I want to thank you so much for being on today for sharing your wisdom for the difference you make for the people in your life that you're doing all the training work, the coaching work for the podcast, in that in German, so people in German that that's their primary language can listen to, and I look forward to

Catharina Schneegass: 43:49

having they also did the English version. So if you want to listen to did that's true. Yeah, that's possible as well. There it is.

Jason Frazell: 43:55

And wish you the very best and everything you're up to, and we'd love to have you back on again soon. Goodbye, everybody. Thanks for watching today.

Catharina Schneegass: 44:02

Thanks for having me, Jason. Thanks.